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Topic: What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Date: Jan 3, 2010
What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?

All,
Since 1968 I have been a Tolkien fan.
Back then psychedelic posters, black lights, and hippies vowed to change the world with peace, love, and "dropping out" of the "Establishment."
A person was to move back to the land and live more in harmony with nature.
Yeah!  Right!
Often these movements operated in a smoky green haze, psychedelic hallucinations, and new horizons of music..
And on the fringe of this so called "revolution" Tolkien's world beckoned with hobbits, the Shire, and heroic fantasies.  What was good was those Elves, Ents, and Hobbits and their connections to the land.  What was bad was the industrial exploitation by Isengard and Mordor, military conquest, and the evil of a mechanical grist mill forced on the innocent Shire.
The was much talk of trying to change our world into what was good in Middle-Earth.

Now I am not claiming that our world became Middle-Earth, but the world is more conscious of our relationship with each other and our earth.  Peaceful resolutions (at times) are sought over armed conflict.  And the worlds of myth, fantasy, and archetypes appear more in our literature, psychological science, and our culture in general.

My topic is this;

"What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?"


For example...I would bring Barliman Butterburr and "The Prancing Pony" into our world.
Often there are clubs in our world which shut out others of different races, religions, or countries.   We could use a gathering place where we could all feel comfortable joining in the 'common room' and sharing our songs and tales around a fire with a drink and perhaps some friendly laughter.

So....

"What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?"







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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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An interesting and thought provoking question Bear.

I would bring in, in some way or other, Elves. So that humanity has a better to look upon in our world, something which is closer to religion rather than wholly bent on science, something less tainted and more at one with everything that we so often clash with. They could be our guides on the road to enlightenment and would instil some morality and purpose into us mortal lowly folk.



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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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I think I too would like to see something....Elvish..as well. Maybe not in a "religious" vain, heaven knows the world has enough of those...but something that would show that there is only one "Creator" and regardless of what ever name we call "IT" Illuvatar or Eru, God, or what ever, we are all....every single soul of us.....regardless of place of birth on this earth....are "IT's" child. A pure, uncluttered spirituality. This is something the Elves knew and something we could do well to relearn.

I would also bring into our world a place like Imladris. A place of healing. Not only of the body, but of the soul and spirit as well.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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mouth of sauron and Anorlas,
I think it very interesting that you both chose to bring Elves into our world.
And more importantly you bring them in for spiritual and moral guideposts.
I'm sure that Tolkien created the "First Born" as an epitome of what he hoped would be the "best" or "highest" of creatures in Arda.
What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?
Perhaps it would work if we brought some of the Valar or Ainur to our world also...not all...just some...I am thinking primarily of "Yavanna".

"Yavanna, spouse of Aule, is the giver of fruits; she seeded the plants and animals of Middle-Earth, and sang into being the Two Trees...she created the Ents as beings to protect her beloved trees..."(Dickerson, Matthew, author  "Valar", J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia. , Michael Drout editor, Scholarship & Critical Assessment ed. 2007. pg. 689)...She is of course one of the Valar;... "The Valar are the Powers of Middle-Earth.  Among the Ainur (rational spirits or minds without incarnation" (Letters,284) who were the offspring of Eru's thought and his vehicles in shaping Arda, were some who descended into Ea to assist in further creation.  Their power was thereafter bounded in the World "so that they are its life and it is theirs."(ibid)
In our world the struggle for ecological balance the empowerment of women still goes on.  Often, within our mythos and culture the feminine archetypes are repressed.  But that day is changing. 
And it would be to all our great advantage to have
"Yavanna,
(surnamed Kementari, Queen of the Earth) whose sphere was ...protectors and nurturers..." (Leibiger, Carol A., author "Women In Tolkien's Works" J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia. , Michael Drout editor, Scholarship & Critical Assessment ed. 2007. pg. 689)

What do you think?



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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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What about Tom Bombadil? What benifits do you guys think he migt bring into our world? Or would he be carried off in a straight jacket in the back of a white van to the funny farm?

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Mr. Baggins,
How about telling us why you would bring Tom Bombadil into our world?


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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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I suppose Middle Earth wouldn't be complete with a Hobbit or three or four running around finding stuff better off left lost....or not...

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Anorlas,
But why?  I can lose and find things better left lost...like the pounds from Christmas goodies.  So why bring hobbits here?
Bear


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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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I suppose because they are just as important part of Eru Iluvatar's master plan as Men or Elves. They are also the most peaceful of races. No waring factions, no civil strife to speak of. A people who value nothing more then being left alone and just doing what they love to do. we could learn a just as much of their values as the Elven way.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Anorlas,
That makes a darn good reason.
Simple folk take simple pleasures.
And when a folk's law enforcement is mainly chasing wayward animals then we are talking an honest people.
A gardener carries respect in the Shire.  Meals more than three times a day means that food and fellowship are of value too. And I too would love to sit on my porch and blow smoke rings while fireworks flash across a peace filled sky.
Thanks for bringing the hobbits...

The White Dragon calls to me!
Bear


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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Well, perhaps the greatest 'lesson' that could be taught from someone in Middle-earth is from Morgoth. Iluvatar saw fit to use him as his most crucial part in his 'Grand Plan', and perhaps that is what we lack in this real world of corruption and crime, an incarnation of evil to show us the boundries, so to speak. After all Elven teachers would be fine but what reason would we have to listen to them? Just words.

If someone tells a two year old not to touch the knife because it is sharp, it means nothing to the two year old, unless they have experienced the pain that comes from it.

I guess things have to be experienced personally if order for a true insight to be gained. Words alone are not enough.

After all, we have the Bible in the Christian world, and the lessons and guidelines in that are quickly waning and having less sway over people these days. It is too hard for most to relate to and is too remote from their own expriences in life.

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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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We are lacking in an incarnation of evil in "this real world of corruption and crime"? I have to disagree Glorfindel. The greed and corruption are the incarnations of evil. People know it is wrong and yet they still do it and this has always been the bane of Mankind. Tolkien himself lamented that humans get bored with peace. They start to imulate the dark and seedy violent underbelly of society. How much more evil do we need, or do you mean an incarnation that all of the earth's people can recognize as such and band against? There has been sages down through the ages who have spoken out against an evil, tried to band their people against it. It dosn't always work very well. Look how long it took the world to stand up to Hitler...and not every one did.

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Wonderfull question Bear;

What would I bring...hmmmmm elves, orcs..no

It would have to something useful and to my advantage.

Hmmm I'd bring the The One to our world.

You would all love me and despair.

I'd cast a glamour over Susan Boyle, and make her my wife.

Stephen Hawkings would be promoted to be my Mouth of Sauron.

My base of operations would be Disney Land, on account of it already having a castle.

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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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But fine, if we need Morgoth then bring on Earendil and the Valar because it was only Earendil who was able to pierce the vails of heaven and bring the host of heaven to earth to save the lives of the remaining Elves and Men because of Morgoth's unrelenting distruction. But don't forget the devestation to the earth it's self in that last battle.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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All,
What wonderful responses!
They are insight filled and thought provoking.
I have always thought something lived in that castle...


Glorfindel,
I can appreciate the concept of needing evil as background to see good.  It is not a yang and yin moral postulate here I think.  You use your introduction of the evil archetype of Morgoth as motivation for change. But you carry it farther.  You bring evil so it will ultimately be overcome by good.
You imply that we all have a right to learn from our own mistakes.
"I guess things have to be experienced personally if order for a true insight to be gained. Words alone are not enough." On that you and I agree . Experience is the great teacher...but not the only teacher. "If someone tells a two year old not to touch the knife because it is sharp, it means nothing to the two year old, unless they have experienced the pain that comes from it." ...or I might add the spanking, "time out", and being yelled at by mom.
Fear may be a greater teacher.
That may be Morgoth's real value.
I think your reasons for bringing Morgoth is a great response to our question and a very good post.


Lady Anorlas,
I agree there is evil in the world.  Our minds and hearts are filled with images and stories of evil's victims.  But greed and corruption are the children of a greater force...Fear.  "Fear of" and "Fear from" underlie most of what we would call evil.  And yet our higher power can use that fear in a way that triggers creativity, innovation, and compassion.
In Dickens's Christmas Carol, Ebenezer Scrooge, (the very epitome of greed), is warned by the ghost of Christmas Present to fear the two scraggily underfed, wretched children crouching beneath his robes.  Their names were "Ignorance"  and "Want".
These two children confronted me yesterday and today with starving faces, AK 47's in the hands of ten year olds, AID's wasted teenage mothers, and religious fascism in the guise of spiritual truth preying on the ignorant.   "Want" and "Ignorance" certainly move me...but the fear of what they will become scares me more.
Scrooge has become a hardened, self-centered, cruel, and greed filled man stripped of compassion, generosity, social interaction, and social consciousness.  It isn't until he is confronted by his death and held to account for his life that he is transformed.
But how did Ebenezer become this evil uncaring miser?
Dickens shows us in his story a young boy's life of want; want of means, want of love, want of social acceptance. And it is that fear of want that leads him to the dark place away from those who would love him. Ignorance of what he has lost and still losing is shown in his reaction to Marley's ghost and its' symbolic chains and chests,  And his redemption comes from this ghost and the three highly symbolic Christmas ghosts, figures that show him elements of his past, present, and future which contain compassion, generosity, social interaction and consciousness.
The key to what I am trying to express is the absolute need for those three Christmas ghosts.
Scrooge needed them...to save his soul.
Do we need the images of the Statue of Liberty, or the Flag raising on Iwo Jima, or the Cross?
Certainly.  People's lives are changed by these.  And I'm sure that there are hundreds more.  We, as human beings, need symbols to rally around.
Individually is our need for these symbols universal and absolute?
Nonsense.
But to the question;

"What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?"
We all see differently. Perhaps that may be why some choose Morgoth as well as the Elves.
I think your challenging response brings home a very good point about what we should or should not bring to our world.  And the point that what we bring or choose not to bring depends on individual perspective of Tolkien's world and our world.


Lord Filli,
Oh Great One, Wearer of the One, Master of the Universe and all its souls may this humble servant beseech thee to do you service as all must and all should; serving with adoration and complete obedience.
As a wizard and counselor might I render service to screen all those who bring you tribute in gold and slaves? (especially the good looking cute females)  My psychological and analytic skills are wasted torturing your goblin slaves.  Your engineering magnificence and unsurpassable malevolent character needs  no underlings to fulfill thy desires, but may those of the dark source and loyalty to your infinite nastiness be your instrument to bring the current world to the state of submission as those of Arda.
Let me be one of the minions that "Kick booty and take numbers!"
Forever may we be ruled by your will,
In willing rear end kissing,
Anti-Bear


Wow!
Talk about different perspectives!!!
I love you folks!
Bear an Elf-Friend




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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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To Lady Anorlas and Glorfindel 1235,
Just a note in watching this heat up...
More of a question actually;
"What if Morgoth is already here?"
and a comment on the openness of our beloved Forum...and this topic in particular...
"Bring whatever you want...all perspectives are welcome...and so are the challenges to what we bring..."
a very happy,
Bear


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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Many interesting thoughts here, all with their own merits.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Mr. Baggins posted;
"What about Tom Bombadil? What benefits do you guys think he might bring into our world? Or would he be carried off in a straight jacket in the back of a white van to the funny farm?" (Tolkien Forums > Utterly Miscellaneous > What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours? > Bilbo Baggins > January 5th, 2010)

I was kind of hoping you would tell us why you would bring Tom Bombadil to our world?  And what benefits you think he would bring to us?  And why you think he would be restrained and sent to an asylum?

Now I personally am not sure I would bring Bombadil here.  And if I tried to bring him I think he might not come. He made a point of saying to Frodo that he would not pass the boundaries of his territory and would not leave his beloved wife Goldberry.

"Tom Bombadil is a spry fellow, with a quick, playful wit. He has a jolly, carefree attitude, and very little seems to concern him.  He calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."
Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evidenced by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning "Ancient" or "Belonging to the distant past"), Men Orald (compare to German: uralt, very old). All these names apparently mean "Eldest." (Wikipedia, "Tom Bombadil", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bombadil)

Tolkien tried to convey a deeper understanding of the character;
"I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless..." (Letters, #153, April 1954)

"What would you bring from Tolkien's world into ours?"
If my answer was Tom Bombadil I would also feel that I would have to bring Goldberry too.  And, after looking into the various roots and theories surrounding this pair, they may be the incarnation of Aule and Yavanna.  As I have already expressed my desire to bring Yavanna here to our world my remarks will center on Tom as Aule.

"Tom is Aule the Smith, the third most powerful of the Valar, the master of all crafts, and the builder of the mountains, land, and basins of the seas.  Aule's chief moral characteristic, in contrast to Melkor, was that he delighted in the works of skill and was not envious of the works of others. This identification of Tom with Aule would explain why Tom is the only powerful being in Middle-Earth not worried that touching the Ring would corrupt him."(Hargrove, Gene. author  "Tom Bombadil", J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, Michael Drout editor, Scholarship & Critical Assessment ed. 2007, pg. 671)

So in conclusion, while I love the character, I'm not sure why Mr. Baggins would bring Tom Bombadil to our world.  In fact I am pretty sure he just would not come.


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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Okay, I've thought this over and bounced ideas around until I think it would be easier for me to move there instead of picking one thing to bring here. A year spent partying with the wood elves, studying with Elrond, gardening with the hobbits (not to mention the naps, scones and of course ale), walking the great city of Minas Tirith, witnessing first hand the Glittering Caves with Gimli's folk and riding swift horses across the plains up to the golden hall in Edoras sounds like a year, or several, well spent.

Having to choose one though, and if you aim you may as well aim high, I want all of Rohan here. The manly, bearded, horseloving, sword toting, strong armed men, the unsurpassed horseflesh, the strong, self-sufficient women, and the lovely mead hall with it's golden thatched roof and roaring fires. I can feel the fire pleasantly warming my toosh and the strong ale warming my belly now. MMMMM. My little piece of heaven. When I get bored I can join a hunting party and mow down a few of Mr. Nasty's minions with a well made, heavy sword. Yeah, baby!!

My husbands response was a bit more simple, sort of. He wants either the foresight of Elrond and Galadriel or an elven cloak. He says he'd only use it for good but I can see him becoming a bit like Loki with one of those things.

As for the others desicions, I think Filli and Glorfindel have made each other quite happy. It's a match made in Valinor. Glorfindel gets his Mr. Nasty to rally all the noble members of this world against and Filli gets to be Mr. Nasty. Viola!! Everyone is happy. AHHH... I love it when we all get along so well. tee-hee And, for what it's worth, I'll try to talk Bear of the top of whatever tower Filli gives him to lord over. Please don't through any Disney toys over the balcony at me, Bear.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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lomoduin (and Nate),
A years vacation in Rohan!
Sounds mighty good to me!
If you could create a "Rohan-Middle-Earth" resort here I promise to buy tickets...lots of tickets...Glittering Caves?  Oh my! Yes!!!
Nate you already have the gift of foresight better than Elrond or Galadriel...you married lomoduin didn't you?!?  Better stick with one of Galadriel's elven cloaks.  I'll join you.  Between you and I...well... I am sure we can find enough mischief with those to keep us happy!
As for throwing Disney toys at you from the tower...I promise no Disney toys...but I'm not promising that I won't throw any thing else!

I think that what folks have brought from Tolkien's world into ours so far has been great!


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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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A cuss of a lot.

The Shire
Mallorn trees of Lothlorien
Faramir
Flets
Radagast the Brown
Niphredil (white flower of Lothlorien_
Elanor (Golden flower of Lothlorien)
Mirurori (the elf wine. yum)
Entdraft (delicious!)
The Glittering caves
Kingsfoil/Athelas
Simelmyne (of Rohan)
Nisimaldar
Lissui
Light from the star of Elendil
Ithilien
A few Hobbits
Second Breakfast
The archenstone
Elvish rope
Elvish bows and arrows
The tiers of Minas Tirith
Elf boats and ships
Elvish and Hobbit music
Maybe Dwarvish music
Shadowfax and the mearas that followed him
Eagles (Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles..that can speak)
Goldberry
The Brandywine
The Smials
Brandybuck Hall
Woody End
Sam
Frodo
Legolas
Arwen
Aragorn
Gandalf
Eowyn as Durnhelm
Bill
Pirate ships
Rivendel
The Shire
The Grey Havens

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Personally? I would bring back allegiance to one another. Rohan was its own kingdom, given by the men of Minas Arnor as tribute to their steadfastness. When the beacons were lit in the third age Rohan answered as the ghosts of "Isildur's curse" did not. When we happen upon Meduseld in the LOTR series the kingdom of the Rohirrim was well established (the mounds and so forth). Theoden's whole kingdom and lineage was built from the grace of Numenor. I hope humanity finds their true purpose once again: Love and support one another in graceful measures, through this we might ascend. Our differences won't matter much when we have a common enemy, and if no enemy presents itself... we should just look after one another..



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Jaidoprism7,

Very nice ... and Amen!

 

And I'd like to live in Imagineer's world too! Second breakfast! Yum!



-- Edited by Bear on Monday 10th of October 2011 08:31:10 AM

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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All,

People listed lots of things, events, creatures, races, and stuff.

Tolkien wrote; "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold it would be a merrier world."

 

So I would like to challenge Forum members to add further quotes in Tolkien's works or letters about changing our world for the better ...



-- Edited by Bear on Wednesday 8th of February 2012 03:37:10 AM

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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My dear friend bear,

  I agree with your call for us to challenge ourselves to add further to this thread by providing quotes and I will answer that challenge A.S.A.P.



You're the best!



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Thursday 9th of February 2012 09:48:01 PM

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Jaidoprism7,

biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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I'd bring in a handful of each race to teach us and observe and learn from us. The Orcs would be especially interesting, to see how they do when removed from the direct influence of Sauron or Morgoth, and put into a totally different and presumably more civilizing surrounding. Perhaps though orcs would do well in our world, and without too much civilizing, if you know what I mean. Trolls and dragons, I dunno. I'm not suicidal, even with silliness like this.

But..... Didn't Tolkien toy with the idea of Middle Earth being ancient Europe? If we take that perspective, then perhaps it is best that the things that have passed have passed, for sustaining past their time would only lead to tears.



-- Edited by steelcutoats on Wednesday 8th of February 2012 12:14:36 AM



-- Edited by steelcutoats on Wednesday 8th of February 2012 12:15:13 AM

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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steelcutoats,

Interesting ... I like the idea of bringing in the handful of the different races ... even if "orcs" were ruined elves ...

 

One of the early motivators behind Tolkien's works was he was writing a "mythological basis for England" ...

I have to ask Galin to back me up on that ...



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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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"...even if "orcs" where ruined elves"....and perhaps not, friend Bear. In the book "The Peoples of Middle-earth, one of Tolkien's final notes on that matter stated that Elves would not allow themselves to become so corrupted. They could be fooled once, like the smiths of Eregion but once they learned the true nature of what they faced they would fight or flee. They were never serve. But men...maybe even Dwarves might be so changed.

I don't have the book here so I cannot give the direct quote.

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Anorlas,

You wrote: "They (The Elves) could be fooled once, like the smiths of Eregion but once they learned the true nature of what they faced they would fight or flee."

I find that quote to be an earnest descriptive given by Tolkien, but there was a third option written into the pages of The Silmarillion (if I'm not mistaken) that may have been bestowed upon the Elves, whether they liked it or not: Enslavement.

Of course they would not serve evil willingly but they were "taken" in the darkness before the light of the trees by evil forces and perhaps "twisted" as thralls against their will. Thus Bear's words: "ruined elves"



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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My friends,

I think there is evidence to support both your perspectives ... and a point might be that we can watch Tolkien evolve and change his works ... in many directions before the final draft ... and we only know those changes that his estate has let us see ...



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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Feb 10, 2012

A small aside on the origin of orcs: over the years Tolkien changed his mind about this, so one can find textual support for various ideas. Briefly (but still a possible sleep aid):

 

1916-17 (Fall of Gondolin, later read at Exeter College in 1920): Melko made the Orcs 'bred of subterranean heats and slime' and they were the 'foul broodlings of Melko'

 

1920s: Tolkien was largely concerned with poetry in these years. His poetry includes references to orcs, but not necessarily any that indicate origin. Or that is, I'm too lazy at the moment to try any find any such references. 

 

1930 (Qenta Noldorinwa): the Dark Lord now makes Orcs 'of stone' with 'hearts of hatred'

 

Mid to late 1930s: (Quenta Silmarillion) Melkor still makes Orcs: 'yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves.' (...) 'The Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.' 

 

1940s and finishing up The Lord of the Rings: Tolkien, perhaps while writing The Lord of the Rings, possibly shifts from Morgoth creating Orcs to Morgoth needing to pervert something already living -- as Frodo thinks might be the case -- although right now I'm unable to exactly date this passage from Frodo (The Tower of Cirith Ungol); 'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...' Appendix F merely states that the orcs were first 'bred' by the Dark Power in the Elder Days. Also Treebeard notes a few things that might speak to chronology, but I'll ignore these here.

 

early 1950s: in The Annals of Aman as first written Melkor still 'made' orcs from something -- but the idea now enters 'Silmarillion related texts' that Melkor cannot create a true living being, as the Elf Pengolod will argue -- and a darker tale is noted among the Wise of Eressea, one that says Morgoth captured and perverted Elves, twisting them into orcs.  Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for the 1977 Silmarillion -- along with other texts from this 'phase' of writing incidentally.

 

1954: in both letter 144 and (draft) letter 153 Tolkien essentially explains that Morgoth cannot create a spirit, and the orcs are corruptions -- leaving open the possibility of other kinds of makings, which would be puppet-like by comparison.

 

later 1950s (or around this time anyway): Tolkien will question whether it could be true that Orcs were actually Elves in origin, and if they could be 'immortal' if so, for example, and he writes various origins in order to figure out things. I'll call these (collectively) the Myths Transformed Orc-related Essays, and use Christopher Tolkien's numbering of the texts. The various ideas include:

 

A) Orcs possibly created out of the discords of the music (text VII). Tolkien writes: 'Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs the Eldar believed that Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'

 

B) Orcs created from beasts; also some Maiar early on (Text VIII) -- possibly an Elvish element too, but seemingly JRRT then reverts to orcs simply being perverted beasts.

 

C) Orcs from Elves (probably later from Men), some Maiar early on (text IX)

 

D) Orcs created from Men, some Maiar early on (text X) in this essay, soon after Morgoth's return he will have a great number of Orcs to command -- as it was left to Sauron to produce great numbers of Orcs (from Men) while Morgoth was in captivity.

 

1969 or later: two notes on Orcs now accompany one copy of text X -- that is, the Orcs from Men essay (or D above)

 

1) one of these notes carries a statement that denies an essential conception found in D -- and I have explained this conception under D above -- the denial hails from the detail that this later note suggests Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs at the height of his power 'and still after his return from captivity.' And to muddy things further here, this may be a draft version for a variant passage that does not include this detail. 

 

2) this short note concerns the spelling of the word orc: here Tolkien notes that he will spell it ork -- just as he had noted in text IX (or C above), where Orcs were from Elves (and 'probably later also of Men').

 

Christopher Tolkien's point with these notes is that they might throw some measure of doubt upon the seemingly 'final' idea that Orcs were bred from Men and so on (text X). That said, there is another late text which appears to have Elves stating that Men are the source for Orcs:

 

Late text (lacks date other than final period of Tolkien's writings): author's note (note 5) to The Druedain: 'To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his shadow;...' I can't really tell if this description is later or earlier than the two notes dated 1969 or later.

 

_______________

 

So that's that, in brief and 'outline form'  smile

 

I'll note too that Tolkien was aware that he needed to play with the chronology in order to have Orcs be first made from Men (besides the Maiar) -- that is, if Tolkien was going to decide it should be certainly true that Men were to be the primary stock for 'regular' orcs, he was aware that he would have to alter the awakening of Men, or the timeline in general, to make this possible.

 

And as noted above, Tolkien had already published a few things concerning the timeline that even he might have to stand by in any case -- a few things stated by Treebeard -- noting also that to be made in mockery of something does not mean one is necessarily made from that something, as illustrated by Tolkien himself in the early Silmarillion.

 



-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 16th of February 2012 02:58:18 AM

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Posts: 753
Date: Feb 10, 2012
Forget Wikipedia all together! We got Galin!

I gotta get my hands on all that material...very impressive Galin.

I think we gotta dig Tolkien up and tell him to make up his mind on the subject. Well done! That's why I keep coming back to this site...

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Tom Bombadil
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Date: Feb 12, 2012
WOW! I never noticed this thread before I would definitely transport the Last Homely House and Lothlorien into some of our Forests.
The Last Homely House would be for the Healing Arts, where I would spent most of my time being taught by Lord Elrond, and for those of us with a Mystical Blend, that would also include me, I would sit at the feet of the Lady Galadriel, learning about things such as mind speech and also learn more about being a Warden. Keep my country safe from invasion of undesirable entities.

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Posts: 2960
Date: Feb 12, 2012

Lady Arwen,

I loved your post ... imagine learning at the feet of Galadriel and Elrond!

Wow!

I'd fight Smaug to be there!!!



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Called or uncalled, God is present

 
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