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Topic: Gwindor

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 16, 2008
Gwindor

 I feel so stupid.  I reading The Children of Hurin for the second time (or third, I've lost count) point is, I just figured out that Gwindor, the elven-lord that is captured at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, is the same guy that helps Beleg find Turin.  I'm wondering how many other simple relations to stories I'm missing even though I've read the books over and over.  I guess you really do learn something new every day.  idea

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Oct 18, 2008
Another one people sometimes don't put together are the Glorfindel from the First Age and the Glorfindel from the Third Age.

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 20, 2008
Yeah, I've always been a little confused by that. When, why and how was Glorfindel allowed to be or sent back is a story I will have to do some research on.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Oct 20, 2008
Glorfindel perished in his battle with the Balrog on his flight from Gondolin. His spirit was summoned to the Halls of Mandos where it dwelt for a time. It then seems that he was allowed to reincarnate in a replica of his old body, built by the Valar, sometime in the Second Age. Then he went back to Middle-earth as we see him in the Third Age. The specific times about when he was reincarnated, how long he stayed in the Halls of Mandos and Valinor, and when he went back to Middle-earth exactly I am not sure of.

Morgoth's Ring is good in explaining about the fate of Elvish spirits.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 20, 2008
Tolkien seems to find a number of reasons why Glorfindel was reincarnated (being under the ban was problematic). He didn't list them like this, but I'll try:

spoiler alert (mabe for Lomoduin or others who want to find out by reading the actual late Glorfindel texts)

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1) Glorfindel was an Elda of high and noble spirit (I'm going to assume exceptionally high and noble is meant)

2) he incurred the ban reluctantly only because of kinship and allegiance to Turgon, and love for his Kindred.

3) he took no part in the Kinslaying

4) 'More important': he had sacrificed his life, enabling Tuor and Idril to escape, a deed of vital importance to the designs of the Valar

So Glorfindel was purged of any guilt (in note 12 Tolkien describes that his guilt had been small, and once again refers to his noble character, among other things), released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him to bodily life -- and he gained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. It is then said he became a friend and follower of... Gandalf!

Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, but his ultimate return (it is said) must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, in SA 1600 is appears.


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Tom Bombadil
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Date: Oct 23, 2008
Well researched Galin, as always. I knew most of it, but that part of follower of Gandalf! is new to me. Thanks.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Oct 23, 2008
About that Gandalf bit... A friend and follower of Gandalf in Valinor or in Middle-earth? Gandalf didn't get to Middle-earth until around 1000 T.A I think, so I assume you mean Valinor?

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Auta  i  lómë! 
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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 23, 2008
It wasn't a spoiler Galin. I appreciate you clearing things up a bit for me.



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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 23, 2008
Yep, I meant that while the reincarnated Glorfindel was still in Valinor he became a friend and follower of the being later known as 'Gandalf'. And actually in essay II it is said 'probably early in his sojourn in Valinor' he became a friend of Gandalf. And on the date of Glorfindel's return to Middle-earth, I should say rather that it appears that c. SA 1600 is the 'more probable' answer according to essay II

No problem Lomoduin and Arwen. Always glad to delve into the Glorfindel matter smile 


Oh, and interestingly there is a late note on the wizards which states that Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens.


-- Edited by Galin at 21:06, 2008-10-23

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 23, 2008
Here is another question I have, though it's not about the Silmarillion, it's along the same idea.

Is the Legolas Greenleaf that leads the escape from Gondolin, as told in The Book of Lost Tales II, The fall of Gondolin, the same Legolas as in the LOTR. If so then he's far older than I precieved. I had always thought of him as relatively young for an elf. Any thoughts Lore Masters?

weirdface


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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: Oct 24, 2008
Though no master of lore, my opinion is that we have a re-use of a name. Glorfindel was also a re-use of a name too, though his ancestry in Gondolin 'almost' made it into The Lord of the Rings at least (while Tolkien was writing the tale), and no real connection with Legolas of Gondolin appears in the drafts, as far as I know, nor in any later text published so far.

Tolkien updated the (very) early long prose version of the Fall of Gondolin in 1951 of course, but never got far enough in the story to deal with the Elf once called Legolas. In the old context Legolas was a Gnome, one of the Noldoli, and his name appears to be a confusion of two Gnomish names Laigolas Legolast.

In the new tale he is a Silvan Elf with Sindarin heritage, as we know, and JRRT altered the derivation of the name to reflect a Silvan dialect (for Sindarin Laegolas). By this time the language called Gnomish no longer existed, though very generally speaking Gnomish was the external 'beginning' of a Welsh-inspired language that would ultimately lead to Sindarin. 

Anyway I've seen some great attempts by fans to explain how the 'two' could be the same, but despite that Tolkien later changed his notion that only Noldor where present in Gondolin, for example, one difficulty in my opinion is keeping Legolas 'of Gondolin' away from the Sea until the Third Age, especially after the destruction of Beleriand. Lindon had become a Realm by the Great Sea before Eastern migrations began, it seems.

There are other considerations too, but generally I would guess that Legolas of Mirkwood was never in Gondolin, and that Tolkien may have invented a wholly new name for the 'night sighted' Gnome that appears in the very old version (the name Gimli is another that appears in The Book of Lost Tales IIRC).


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