Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: Translation Help Needed

Post Info
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 57
Date: May 5, 2008
Translation Help Needed


History:
A year ago , this week, I found a fiberglass canoe in the dump. It had a 4' crack, mid boat, on both sides that was poorly repaired. Last month I started the restoration and will start the repainting this week or next, depending on the weather.

I've been looking for a name for the canoe that describes it's return to service. I've thought of a long list of common names and then last week while reading the intro to the 'Unfinished Tales' I found my name.

'there is a value greater than the mere uncovering of curious detail in learning that Veantur the Numenorean brought his ship Entulesse, the Return, into the Grey Havens on the spring winds of the 600th year SA.'

So Entulesse has become the name.

Question.
Being it's a canoe and not having a square stern I will be painting the name on each side of the canoe. My plan put Entulesse on one side and would like to put the High-Eldarin translation on the other.

I need help in that translation.

I assume that Entulesse is already High-Eldarin based on a ref in the AKALLABETH that their names and place names were take from the H-E language, SO I'm GUESSING they would also name their ships in H-E.

Another question: If it is H-E what would the Sindarin translation?

TIA

Sweeper

__________________
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: May 6, 2008
Entulesse is High-elven or Quenya.

How about Entulesse on one side, and the name in Tengwar on the other? That way you get the same name (one nicely attested by Tolkien), just written differently of course.

__________________
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: May 6, 2008
Oh, and hello smile

__________________
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 57
Date: May 6, 2008
And Tengwar is Sindarin for return?

Rereading my post I'd like to Clarify my request. I'd like to paint the name in Quenya script.

__________________
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: May 6, 2008
By Tengwar 'letters' I mean Elvish characters, and what I'm suggesting is maybe use the Quenya name, since it's attested by Tolkien, and on one side write it using the Elvish letters -- and on the other side maybe a Roman transcription so people can read it if not understand the meaning -- they might come close to the intended pronunciation anyway.




-- Edited by Galin at 12:15, 2008-05-12

__________________
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: May 7, 2008
Whatever you decide, here's how I would write Entulesse using the Elvish script anyway. I can only describe the characters, using their names or describing a carrier (in colour below), and for reference I have added the numbers that correspond to the chart in The Return of the King. Or, you could use Amanye Tenceli on the web to see the shapes, if it's easier than the book.

Putting the tehtar (basically I mean the 'vowel marks') over the preceding consonant if one is available, for Entulesse I would say:

short carrier with e-tehta above it (this tehta looks like a stroke or an acute accent): anto (13) with u-tehta above it (this tehta looks like a curl open to the left): lambe (27) with an e-tehta above it: esse nuquerna (32) with an e-tehta above it.

Variations can be found, for example in his transcription of Galadriel's lament Tolkien used esse instead of esse nuquerna for lassi, and esse nuquerna for Lóriendesse (in the same text).


-- Edited by Galin at 03:04, 2008-05-09

__________________
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: May 12, 2008
I guess I should probably note that I brought up this request at another forum in which I know Tyrhael is a language mod, and for a few days now a small discussion has followed, including a couple other people. So, here it is (so far):

__________

Tyr: Galin, I cannot currently access the forum which I assume you mean by 'elsewhere,' so I'd have to post it here. Regarding Entulesse, I would take the base element tul and make some changes: Roman Rausch notes in this article that PE17 mentions that instead of EN in Sindarin we find ATA therefore, entul- would become perhaps athol- with stop mutation, and then the verbal -sse could be represented by -Vth as in meleth, tirith, etc. to make Atholeth. I wonder whether the A-mutation of athul- > athol- would occur, though. 

Me
: Thanks Tyr I suggested this person just stick with attested Entulesse, and write it in Roman characters on one side of the boat, in Elvish characters on the other. To that I have met with some perhaps meaningful silence (so far), so maybe he is intent on a Sindarin version, despite that I think the more attested path is better in any case.

Tyr
: You're welcome, Galin I agree about the 'more attested path' in this situation as well.

Aelindis
: Tyr, it seems to me that in this case the general change change u > o might have occurred irrespective of (later) a-affection.  

Re: 'I wonder whether the A-mutation of athul- > athol- would occur, though. '
Aranhael: Compare e.g. rhudol 'unwelcome, coming (adjective or substantive) with evil omen, or intent' (PE17:170). The root used here is tol instead of tul, likely by analogy.

Tyr
: Thanks, Aelindis and Aranhael (neo)-Sindarin is not exactly my forte.

Re *Atholeth:

Aelindis: On second thought I would rather suggest attested S. damen return / dadwen, dandol return, going/coming back, since according to PE17 AT- back is referring to an action by another agent in return to a previous action, whereas NDAN- / ND (NDANA, NDATA- back (again) refer to action by same agent in revising a previous action; as going and coming back, return. (PE17:166)


Me
: Well, originally I was too lazy to check PE17 myself (thinking Entulesse itself should do anyway), so that helped obviously; and though I would agree about using a whole (attested) word Aelindis, also, as I read it at least, I think you might be referring to a rejected entry.

The editors of PE17 note that the second etymology concerning NDAN- and AT- 'back' (which includes 'an action by another agent in return to a previous action') was rejected with three diagonal strokes, and four etymologies were written below. One of the four includes (italics as printed):
3) AT(A)- is re- of the same or other agent in repeating (more or less similarly) a previous action. CF. at- 'two'. Similarly in Sindarin. App[lied] both in form at- and ata-. Q ata- only in literal sense of second time, double...'

And number 4 includes the statement that Tyr refers to.

__________

Edit: LOL, I knew I was going to have trouble formatting this post! And sorry to refer to you as 'this person' Sweeper, but that's only because it was at another forum.



-- Edited by Galin at 14:37, 2008-05-12

__________________
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 57
Date: May 12, 2008
Thanks Galin This is why I say I'd do better the theory of relativity.

What is PE17?

-- Edited by Sweeper at 18:41, 2008-05-12

__________________
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 562
Date: May 12, 2008
PE stands for Parma Eldalamberon Sweeper, a Tolkien-based linguistic journal like (another one) Vinyar Tengwar. And PE number 17 (recently published) includes Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages, which has given people interested in the languages much 'new' material to sort through and consider. I have it, but I didn't actually check it until Aelindis brought up the references and page number in the other thread. 

Anyway, Tyrhael tried to take the Quenya word Entulesse and construct something in Sindarin, based on a breakdown of its elements. But he does not start with en- because it's noted in PE17:

'Quenya uses EN- (originally = go on doing something?) as in enquanta-, refill, enquete-, repeat, say again. (...) In Sindarin this would so often be indisting[uishable] from ET- 'out' (as in et-pet-, say out, en=pet > ephed) that it [was] replaced by ATA-, as adbed, rephrase.' JRRT

I had hoped Tyrhael would show up because he also knows how to make the Elvish letters appear in a thread (so he could show you how to write Entulesse using the Tengwar), while I can only describe them and refer to the chart. Maybe someone else here can do this as well, I don't know.

Good luck anyway!

__________________
 
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard