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Topic: Dwarves

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Feb 21, 2007
Dwarves

Can anyone tell me what became of the dwarves after their mutiliation in the Mines of Moriur. 

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I am not sure what you mean...do you mean the first time the balrog made its appearence and killed many including Durin VI, or the later attempt made by Balin to reconquer Moria?

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Feb 23, 2007
I was thinking of the time when Frodo and the others travelled into the Mines of Moria and came upon the dead therein and Gimil was horrified at what he saw.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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The ruin of Moria came about when the Dwarves delved too deep and awoke the Balrog which had fled there after the War of Wrath. Then the Dwarves had to vactae Moria and move to there strongholds elsewhere (like in the Blue mountains and the Lonely Mountain). Much later on Balin, son of Fundin, lead a Dwarven army to try and re-take Moria but they were never heard of again until the Fellowship found Balins tomb when they journeyed through Moria. That is when they also found the book which Gandalf tells of the Dwarves' final stand in Moria.

-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 13:43, 2007-02-23

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Yes indeed, after the awakening of Durin's Bane, the Dwarves were forced to retreat
The first to return to Moria was Thror who was foolish enough to simply walk inside...and was killed by Azog
The following War between the Dwarves and Orcs also ended near Moria's east gate in the battle of Azanulbizar.
The Dwarves had suffered many casualties and decided that going into Moria was too dangerous, but they still longed for it.
Balin decided to make a new attempt and actually in the beginning tings went well. The dwarves explored all the way to the west gate and recovered great treasures including Durin's axe. Unfortunately the orcs and other dark creatures attacked them, and they could not escape westward either since the Watcher in the Water was there.
Anyway, the dream of the Dwarves seems to have become reality in the beginning of the Fourth Age as Durin VII is said to have recolonized Moria, and that the Dwarves lived there until Durin's Line ended.


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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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The Might wrote:
Anyway, the dream of the Dwarves seems to have become reality in the beginning of the Fourth Age as Durin VII is said to have recolonized Moria, and that the Dwarves lived there until Durin's Line ended.




In drafts not used for the final version of Appendix A it said that

Published by Tolkien is the appearance of 'Durin VII and Last' in the genealogy in Appendix A. Also, I note what is said in the unused Epilogue for The Lord of the Rings:

'Have the mines of Moria been opened again? Are there any Orcs left?'

[Sam's answer] 'Moria: I have heard no news. Maybe the foretelling about Durin is not for our time. Dark places still need a lot of cleaning up. I guess it will take a lot of trouble and daring deeds yet to root out the evil creatures from the halls of Moria. For there are certainly plenty of Orcs left in such places. It is not likely that we shall ever get quite rid of them.'
Draft text, Epilogue

Difficult to say if Tolkien rejected the passage you are (or seem to be) referring to, or lost it; but in any case it became, along with this version of the Epilogue, an 'unused draft' for The Return of the King.



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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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So did the Dwarves re-take Moria or not?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Feb 25, 2007
Indeed it is an unclear matter, I forgot that

"Thus it was here that "Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it (as is said in the accompanying genealogical table). To this my father never referred again; as Robert Foster noted in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, ' There is no mention of a recolonization of Khazad-dum in the Fourth Age, despite the death of the Balrog.' It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this idea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition." ~ Christopher Tolkien, HOME12, Making of Appendix A

So as we see CT believes that his father simply "lost" this idea when finishing the appendices and did not simply reject it since Durin is mentioned in the Appendix, but no further information is provided. I personally fully agree. If Durin is mentioned, the most important of his folk ever, it would make sense that more information is given, but in this case nothing appears in the published edition - a strong point for the theory of this as a forgotten thing.

Of course an argument against the recolonization of Moria is the fact the idea wasn't expanded, but perhaps after forgetting it while writing the Appendices, Tolkien never thought about writing something on the future of Moria.

Unfortunately, this seems to be another never fully finished matter, however I personally like to think the Dwarves were succesfull. With the Orcs weakened and the balrog gone I am confident their desire to reconquer Moria was fulfilled.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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I don't think Christopher is so sure, as he said 'possibly...' with respect to a supposition.

In any case even he doesn't know thus it's possibly rejected too despite the tantalizing name in the genealogy.

Edit: one reason for rejection might simply be because the passage was too 'certain' and Tolkien wanted to 'tantalize' rather.

Galin

-- Edited by Galin at 21:13, 2007-02-25

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Good point there Galin.
Tolkien definitely left us with very few answered questions about the fourth age, so it makes sense that he wanted us to ask ourselves if the Dwarves ever reconquered Moria.
Anyway, if this was his wish, then I guess he did a good job seeing how many are interested in finding an answer.
I personally hope they did, even though it was pretty clear their folk was doomed to eventually disappear and make room for Men to rule the world.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Perhaps they tried to retake the Grey hills and other strongholds that they use to have. I doubt the Dwarves would have stopped trying to expand, or at least re-taken what was there due. But I suppose its all assumption and fan-fic.

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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In the Hobbit JRRT describes the Dwarves as having an insane love of gold and jewels (my words, not his). The way Thorin acted over his cave of gold was a little over the top. Was this lust a result of the rings given to the Dwarves by Sauron, or was this a natural Dwarf thing? Gimli was "cured" by Galadriel if the former is the case. And if it is the case that it was from the rings, why were the Dwarves in the Sil so greedy for jewels? If their love wasn't from the rings, did Aule make them this way?

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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  Of the people of Middle-earth, Dwarves are the most resistant to corruption and influence of Morgoth and later Sauron. The seven rings of Power of the dwarves did not turn them to evil, but it did amplify their greed and lust for gold. It is said that very few willfully served the side of darkness.
   The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.
(Tolkien, J.R.R., The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, pgs 288-289)



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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Right, but after the rings were gone, does that mean its influence continued on through the generations?



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Laurelin,
I think that your question has no answer but only opinion.

"but it did amplify their greed and lust for gold."



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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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I always thought the Dwarves had an innate greed for such treasure though nothing in the Silmarillion proves that until the making of the Nauglamir...interesting.

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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That's kinda what I had thought, Jaido, but I just couldn't imagine Aule making them as greedy beings. Obviously, all the beings of ME had free will, but to have all Dwarves be greedy seemed odd. Odd until the rings, of course.



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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I always inferred that because Aule was their creator they would pursue the same path as Aule (Known as the the Smith and Smith of the Valar, concerned with rock, metal, nature of substances and works of craft)

Aulë governed the substances of the world and delighted in all works and crafts all of which he is master, from small works of skin to the forging of all lands and mountains and basins of the sea. He made the rocks, the gems and all minerals. Aule enjoyed his skill of devising and making new things.
As gold is metal and gems are rock Dwarves would have a natural tendency to be enamored of rare metals and rare rocks and crystals ... and be excellent craftsmen in all works of the forge ... and would hoard these precious materials not for the wealth it brought them but because of their unique beauty ... as  Thorin Oakenshield cherished the Arkenstone (prized by all Dwarves as the "Heart of the Mountain").



-- Edited by Bear on Monday 23rd of March 2015 02:08:03 AM

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Tom Bombadil
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Which is also the stone said to have driven his Grandfather mad. Not a good thing if you ask me.

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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I get that the Dwarves would have loved what Aule loved, but obsessively? To madness? That's what I find odd pre-rings.

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Tom Bombadil
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I guess Tolkien might have been trying to teach his kids a lesson with that. You know the Hobbit was written for his children since the UK didn't have any night time stories for children. I guess it would have been aimed at Greed maybe? Because, there are still people who are " Money-mad" who can't get enough of wealth. Just my own humble opinion.

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