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Topic: Mouth of Sauron

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Mar 27, 2006
Mouth of Sauron

It is generally understood that the mouth of Sauron was a black Numenorean but how old was he? He would have got extra long life from being a Numenorean but Sauron must have given him much loger life if you was to survive to the end of the third age from the mid region of the second age.
Does anybody have a good estimate for how old he was?



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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: Mar 28, 2006

Well, he likely isn't as old as you may think.


"And he [the Mouth of Sauron] entered the service of the Dark Tower when if first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc." (RotK, The Black Gate Opens, my bold)


"2951 Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dur." (RotK, Appendix B, my bold)


The War of the Ring began in TA3019, so the Mouth had been in the service of Sauron for 68 years.  This is not necessarily a great age for a Man of Numenorean descent, and thus he could be of any age greater than, say 78.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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If Sauron begins to re-build Barad-dur again in around 2900-3000 S.A and Mouth of Sauron took up service there when it was rissen again that would still make him over 900 by the end of the third age?

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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Umm, I think that you have mistaken my quote.  Sauron began to rebuild the Barad-dur in 2951 of the Third Age.  Therefore, only 68 years before the War of the Ring.  It wouldn't make sense if Sauron was to rebuild it during the Second Age, since it was not destoyed until the end of that Age anyways.


Oh, and if he had come back into Sauron's service in SA 2951 (which I have clearly shown wasn't the case), he would have been much older than 900.  At least 3,009 years old, in fact.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Yes if you meant SA 3000 I was meant to put at least 2900, not 900.


However you do not state whther it was 2900 S.A or T.A, therefore I assumed it was the former, not far off though I admit before, the last alliance.



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Orc captain of Thangorodrim - Rank 3
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Date: Mar 28, 2006
I did not specify which Age I was referring to, since I thought it unnecessary.  I appoligise if I in any was caused confusion, but since the Barad-dur could not be rebuilt unless it had been first destroyed, I did not think the addition relevant.  Furthermore, since the quote itself is from the middle of the Tale of Years, the Age in which it occurs is not part of the quote, although I should have added it as a footnote.

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Peoples of Rohan - Rank 1
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I agree with what Elendil has said, I don't actually think that the Mouth of Sauron was necessarily that old. It is easy to think that because the Nazgûl had been around for so long that the Mouth of Sauron would have been the same.  Of course, as Tolkien didn't specifically state his age it is possible that he was older, although I feel that what Elendil had said is most likely.

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Valar
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Searogim, still 68 years old is is a long time to be in someone's, eventhough if it's not nearly as long as the Nazgul of course .  But, I agree, there's no reason to think the MoS was unusually old.  If he indeed was a Black Numenorean, Aragorn lived to be 210, Faramir 120 (had a lesser Numenorean bloodline than Aragorn), so there's no conflict with the Mouth of Sauron's age.

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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Soldier of the East - Rank 4
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Actually I think that Glorfindell1235 has mistakenly made a point. Maybe when it says that the MoS arose when Sauron arose in Mordor after the fall of Numenor and before the last alliance. Which would make him about 2600 years old.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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no GilGalad
no Man can live 2600 years
people live 100 at most, considering the fact he was Numenorean in origin, maybe 200, but not 2600, no Numenorean ever lived that long
the quote clearly refers to Sauron's coming to Mordor from Dol Guldur in the Third Age

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I won't deny that you are correct TM but perhaps if Mos was given enough power by Sauron he could live to such ages.

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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given power by Sauron?
you can't beat nature...that is the way people, even from Numenor where, and noone and nothing could change that, not Sauron, not the Ring, not the Silmarili

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Chief Maiar
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I would just like to add that not even the Valar could change the gift of Eru, which is death to men:


 


''But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. ''



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Valar
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Good quote Olorin. Sauron was able to keep the Nazgul in a physical presence because he held control over them and they 'rise and fall with Him.' But that Nazgul weren't living, they had a physical presence on Middle-earth, but they were long dead.  Sauron didn't have the ability to extend people's ages and keep them alive.  There are some special cases where the dead can interact with events on Middle-earth, but Sauron didn't have the ability to extend life.


Let's take the Army of the Deady, they had no physical forms.  They were dead, they were barely visible shades, but their bodies had long died.  Isildur had cursed their spirits to never rest until they had fulfilled their oath to Gondor, so they go running in their mountains, their body dies, and lo and behold their cursed and their spirits can't find rest until their oath to fight for Gondor was fulfilled.


Even the power of curses did not have the ability to keep Mens' body and spirit from seperating (which was death in Tolkien's writings).  That's just something that happens and as Olorin provides out is going to happen and even the Valar couldn't do.


The MoS was probably approaching 100.  From the reading it suggests that he did not start out in the position we see him (Lieutenant, herald, and ambassador of Sauron).  It suggests he rose up through the ranks, as he 'grew in his Lord's favor.' So I would take that as he joined Sauron's service at a rather young age, Sauron grew to favor him, until he was Lieutenant of Barad-dur.


As a little side point that me be of some interest to others, I've also heard the theory that if Sauron was successful with his war and defeating all the Free races of Middle-earth, he would have booted Saruman from Orthanc and handed it over to the Mouth of Sauron to run.  One which I think is good and I agree with.


1. We know Sauron was full aware of what Saruman was planning and was only using him for his own purposes.  Saruman had these plans of taking the Ring for his own and with time overthrowing Sauron, with the One Ring.  But, I think we can say Sauron was aware of what Saruman was up to:


'Saruman is a fool, a dirty treacherous fool: but the Eye is on him'~Grishnakh, The Uruk-hai


2. The Mouth of Sauron knew Sauron's mind more than anyone else, and was 'more cruel than any orc.'  Also he was Sauron's ambassador and herald (meaning his representative), so he was pretty much like another Sauron, only of course not as powerful.  The Mouth would be someone that would carry out Sauron's plans, unlike Saruman.


3. Sauron, unlike Morgoth, loved order and co-ordination, it would be easier for him to run a newly acquired Middle-earth and make sure things go smoothly with someone that was like himself overseeing another area of his.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Are you sure the Valar could not keep mortals alive? I thought they gave the Numenoreans extra long life simply becuase they were not allowed to make them immortal, not becuase they couldn't...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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nothing was immortal, and nothing could be immortal
3000 years seemed immortality for some men, because their lifespan was far smaller, but nothing could be immortal

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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I thought the Elves where Immortal.

Or am I mistaken?

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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As far as I am aware they last along as the world will last. But seeing as in Arda has a pre-determined lifespan (it ends after the Day of Doom) the Elves don't actually live forever. But to all intents and purposes no amount of years can kill them within the lifespan of the world, thus they are immortal.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Tolkien once noted: 'The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying' (Letter 245, 1963).

And, to state the obvious, they could be killed, or ultimately fade in the body in Middle-earth. However, as Bilbo stated when killed their spirits did not leave the World like the spirits of Men, and could be reincarnated, generally speaking.

In short the Elves were not allowed to leave the 'story of the World' until it was played out, and had theories about what death (at the end of the World) meant for them. A couple other interesting comments from the Master:

'They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed' by the injury or descruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain in the world, either discarnate, or being re-born. This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction.'

'The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the World in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.'


JRRT, Letters


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